This showed up on the /r/politics page. Let’s continue the debate here! What do you guys think? Comment.
“To all Occupy Wall Street participants, here is the key to your victory… (for serious) (self.politics)
submitted 9 hours ago by HotKarlMarx
Guys, listen. Here’s the deal.
I love you guys with every shred of my hard-left leaning heart. But I think you might be doing something wrong. Here is one thing that can help you.
Tomorrow, wear a polo and khakis
Seriously. polos and khakis. Every time you guys DO finally get some fucking press, it’s a scrawny dude with dreads in a ratty t-shirt. You’re going big here, dress it. Tomorrow, Polo shirt and Khakis.
Why? Because you need to get the right-leaning equivalent of me on your side. I’m 35 right now. I understand where the hippy thing comes from. I get it as well as a guy who’s 35 can. My Counterparts do not. They think you are scummy druggies on welfare and when they see on tv a bunch of people who they think are S.D’s on W, they root for the cops to hit you again.
Speaking of the cops, Who do you think they’ll mace first? SD’s on W, or a guy in khakis and a polo? Seriously, it’s fucking cop camouflage. And if they DO come for you. When people at home see PEOPLE THAT LOOK LIKE THEM getting abused by police… That’s when shit changes.
Seeing protesters get beat up means nothing because protesters get beat up all the time. Therefore, don’t look like a protester! This connects you to the person watching and opens them to your side!
So for serious. Do it. You’re almost about to tip this thing over. Polos and khakis. Cop Camo + target audience = Shave, shower and polos and khakis.
TL;DR: Polo shirt and Khakis = dress code for nyc protests tomorrow.
Do it.
Edit: Going to bed soon, one more thing before I turn it over to all of you.
Please spread this as much as you can. Professionalism will help push this thing over the edge. You have labor pushing you. National Media is starting to wake up to you. You’re almost there. Keep pushing.
Think: Business Casual Friday. Don’t play it up like the Billionaires for healthcare. You’re just a guy, going to work in this big office building here.
Even if you don’t think that you SHOULD be judged on appearances (which I do agree), You have to realize that you ARE. Fight the appearance fight another day. Polos and khakis.
Do it.”
91 Responses to “Khakis and Polos: A Reddit Discussion”
I totally agree with this, I was glad to see it at the top of the front page and I’m glad to see it here. I really hope it catches on.
Couldn’t agree more. I am a patched-jean-short, torn-shirt, unwashed punk myself, but I’m going to get a button-down shirt and some slacks from the goodwill for this.
Yeah, this be some racist bullshit. A hell of a lot of the skinny dudes with dreads in this crowd are never gonna be able to look like your polo-wearing rich bros; besides, many others of us are there because we ARE on welfare, unemployed, having trouble getting adequate food & healthcare. I’m here to rep ME, not some rando well-dressed biased prick.
but there is something you have to realize, and that is image says a lot. it’s not like people know who you are as a person so people judge you by the way you look. and if you have dreads, you become a cliche. if you have dreads and dressed professionally, you will catch attention.
of course, people should not judge you, but this is the reality of life.
people do judge quickly so counter that fact.
It is not cliche for Black people to have dreads. This is racist.
White people also have dreads. It’s not racist to call dreads a cliche. It is, however, important to appeal to as many people as possible. During the McGovern campaign for president, one huge thing people did to get support: all the long-haired and bearded young people shaved and cut their hair, bought or borrowed a suit, and went door to door. They had a greater impact! Sometimes, you have to approach people on their terms, even if you feel they should be more open minded. Like the person above commented: if you can’t afford something nice, go to good will. You can look professional with dreads, my roommate did it every day working as a server. We’ve got to let our differences go and not be quick to label people as racist, for example, for suggesting we look our best to win “hearts and minds.”
you should probably just stay home then
Sorry that was mean.
But this isn’t really about you. Its about bank bailouts.
This post isn’t about bank bailouts. It’s about asking those people that have an identity that is ALREADY marginalized and thought as inferior to “class themselves up a little”.
If you can’t see how individuals of a marginalized group feel strongly about that, then you’re just another white dudebro type that WISHES he was in the 1%.
AMEN, Jane…if we can’t come as ourselves, we are tacitly participating in our own oppression. The Revolution is for EVERYBODY…not just those who conform to bourgeois notions of ‘respectability’. Stop playing the same games as those who oppress us!! I’m 64 years old and a disabled combat veteran and I know plenty GOOD people who can’t even AFFORD the ‘costume’ suggested by the poster who proposed such a shameful masquerade. The Revolution is NOT a dinner party..it’s “Come As You Are Are”!
Can we not taint this protest with the ridiculous identity politics that ruin so many leftist causes?
Definitely definitely definitely dress for success – what you’d wear to an interview – show them you are capable of understanding what an interview requires so they can’t say it’s because you dressed poorly and can’t get hired due to your own dysfunction – don’t give them what they want – revolution requires strategy… you can’t fight this unless you combat theirs….. show them we are capable and willing to work but that there are no jobs and no interviews to go on. The media will have them believe otherwise. Do not be so unwilling to bend that you destroy the cause for the benefit of your own ego.
Dan’s leftist cause: Getting into the 1% because ‘I’m white and not like those dirty hippies/black people/latin@s that have their ~identity politics!!”
I totally agree. The original thread is like a tone argument for fashion.
Not to the person I’m commenting to, but everyone else: The point is to get respect and basic human rights from those that want to withhold it. Asking people that will NEVER look like the polished white guys on wall st to try to look like them? Please. That’s privileged and racist bullshit.
It’s the same thinking that the assholes on wall st think everyday. “If they’d just shave and get a suit, they could get a job in no time.”
What a conincidence….I was just thinking how much more effective the protests would be if people showed up in nice clothes, and lo-and-behold, it’s right here on the front page. Good on you guys. Look like everyone else, and you connect with everyone else. Look like a dirty-fringe-hippy-crazy, and no one takes you serioulsy. PLEASE DRESS NICELY!!! It’s not to stifle creativity or self-expression….there’s larger purpose to all of this….keep that in the forefront of your mind. Getting on TV is useless if you can’t garner sympathy from the viewers.
I think both can be represented tomorrow-those who can, dress to the folks you are speaking to, and those that can not, dress as you live. It is important for the visual vocabulary of the message be readable by everyone. It is not bullshit to try and understand how others may perceive your personal visual vocabulary, it is just smart communication.If the people you are speaking to don’t “GET” all of this, or understand what is going on with poverty, the visual vocabulary may get in the way of the broader message. If you are limited in your clothing choices due to welfare issues, employment issues, housing issues, then calmly explain that to anyone who will listen. Rage against the machine, yes, very important, but remember the idea of the Universal Translator from the Trek shows-your visual vocabulary communicates a very strong message in and of itself, for right or wrong, it is what it is. You have to get the masses to listen first before they can understand.
As a conservative, we need our government to be much smaller and ask individuals to take care of themselves. All governments are, and always has been, inefficient and spend more tax money (my money) than is needed to address something (public safety, transportation, healthcare, etc.).
The idea of any government taking the money I earned, and somehow using it to care for others who are less fortunate, is absurd. People need to care for themselves, then their spouse, then their family, then friends, then acquaintances, then strangers. Our government should not mandate that we give our money to them under the premise government will provide. This does not work – the inefficiencies of government, the greed of people to abuse the system, the removal of incentive to people to work because …”someone else (government) is going to care for me”, are all reasons why we need the smallest government possible.
governments role should be limited to providing us a safe country to live in, nothing more. Let our society – individuals, with individual rights, work together to do the rest.
Any other thinking is socialist and unsustainable.
big government is a symptom of the dysfunction in our government.
you can’t say we want a big government.
the people want a functioning government.
and if you think it’s big, don’t blame the people for that.
blame the bought politicians who make us fight each other.
blame the filthy rich who control the politicians for their own welfare and lifestyle.
don’t blame people with little to no power.
Wrong. So very, very wrong.
No man is an island and we need to care for everyone. I don’t mean that everyone has to be equal, but I do mean that everyone deserves basic food, shelter and medical care. It is disgusting to think otherwise.
The size of government is not the problem. The problem is the undue influence that wealthy individuals and corporations have on government.
The problem is, big government is by nature inefficient. It is possible to work towards an ideal in which the poor do not have to depend on the government to get by… one where people take personal responsibility for their brothers and sisters and the bureaucracy is only engaged in extreme cases. It makes a lot of sense to have the most tax go to the most local level of government. The further it gets from us (ie, income tax… which apparently trickles down, with the exception of 57% of discretionary spending that goes to the defense INDUSTRY), the less impact it actually has on our daily lives. Government needs restructuring and people need to be empowered to self-govern and administer basic services. The reason undue influence can take place with such incredible consequences is because the federal government is so massive! States are perfectly capable of developing welfare systems and health care. The federal government should only make sure that they do not abuse or neglect the rights of their citizens.
Who is the “we” that needs to take care of everyone? Churches? Non-profits? Corporations? Governments? And who determines the actions of these groups? And if I disagree with a group strategy, can I withdraw participation?
John – the cause of this revolution is not to allow people to take your money – it’s to stop corporations from bribing our government. Have you ever put two and two together on where subsidies end up. (In the hands of wealthy corporations) In example -the restaurant industry right now is lobbying your government to allow food stamp use for a wine and dine meal. Rental money is going back into the hands of wealthy landlords at market rate charges. Low income complexes are being built by wealthy developers. And retailers are rolling in the EBT cards. Who do you think is really driving welfare? Why do your politicians ignore cases of fraud? I am the 99 percent and I do not want a corporation pushing my government into stealing from the working class to give to themselves in the guise of help for the poor. I believe only the elderly and the truly disabled should be taken care of -I don’t want to be like India with a caste system where the wealthy step over the dying in the street. In America we help those who can’t – not those who will spend. What’s next ? free cars, free cable, free cell phones Corporations are pushing subsidies that do not benefit society. I am joining this fight and if you believe what you say – so should you. I don’t agree with all your views but we aren’t asking our government to take care of us we’re asking them to return what has been taken and outright stolen from us. Corporations aren’t headquartered here, they pay no taxes, they use mass amounts of resources, and now they refuse to employ the populous of America all while bribing our government into making laws that benefit their pockets and steal from ours. People can no longer help themselves when they can’t find work or jobs that meet the cost of living – and that puts the entire system at risk of collapse – as well as your family and makes your wallet obsolete.
John – one other point is that you talk about government as if it is not run, staffed , taken over and bureaucratized by big business conglomerates – the line has been blurred. There is no distinction – big government is big business. Our government and corporations have become one. So that government you so despise is in fact what we are fighting. I gather you despise them as much as we do.
Let’s fight this system together – Join the cause !!!
You are 100% correct NO ONE should ever expect he government to protect them from their own mistakes. I’m talking about corporate welfare queens like AIG, Chrysler, Fleet Bank (I mean Bank of Boston, or is it Bay Bank? What all those banks are now bank of America? Curiously if we enforced existing anti-trust laws we wouldn’t have so many companies that are “too big to fail”)
Or do you only mean people should take care of themselves only if they can’t afford to create a super-pac and buy a few politicians to raid the treasury for you.
As for how you should dress? Be presentable. The ultra-left commies are also only 1%. The problem is not the free market, it’s the people using their wealth to manipulate government to create economic policies that are tailor maid to protect their wealth (kind of how no one is driving around in a Tucker automobile, the big 3 were threatened by a superior product from a new competitor so they used their political connections to destroy Preston Tucker’s life, same thing happened to John Delorian)
As I mentioned in my last post, there are some people who just don’t “GET IT” out there.
I never liked to “dress for success” and luckily never had to, but the point is valid.
To those who cannot afford to: do what you can. I’m too old to be there myself, but there are many people my age who have sympathy for this movement. Unfortunately, many of them have prejudices about clothing and appearance – do what you can not to feed those prejudices.
I have a professional job with the state, I wear jeans and t-shirts to work most days. I am not seen as “unprofessional” for doing so either. I am not going to dress-up to protest. Be who you are! I think enough people from various backgrounds will be participating today that it shouldn’t matter what people wear…..as long as they wear something.
I saw a man with dress slacks, button down shirt and a tie protesting on Wall Street. He was a former employee of wall street. There are all types of people protesting. Not just “hippy” types of people. And for the record, I have not seen any people with dreads on the news. I get what you are saying, but I think people are more savy than that. Otherwise, the civil rights marches of the 1960s would not have been successful. Also people would not have been inspired by the protests of people from all these other countries that don’t look or dress like we do here.
All of these comments make an implicit assumption that we, the 99%, are trying to to appeal to the rich, white, male, well-dressed, presumably het-sex white collar office worker, the native English-speaking, US-citizenship wielding, judgmental fancy-pants professionals who currently wield power and make decisions. Those people are the 1%. I AM NOT HERE TO APPEAL TO THAT PERSON.
errrr “business casual Friday” “professionalism”
Come on! Who’s “business” attire is a Starbucks or cleaners uniform? Carharts? Pajamas because you’re unemployed? Who wears suits and khakis in their regular life?
The assumptions in this of who this movement is made up of and who it represents and who it appeals to are incredibly exclusionary.
Sometimes you have to approach people on their terms if you want them to listen. The 1% is a very small group of people, not simply “the rich,” but the very rich… the top 1%. It is unlikely we could appeal to the very rich on any terms, but it is certainly worthwhile not to alienate people from the 99%. This number even includes millionaires! What we have here is not a fringe movement, but a mass movement.
You are still making the assumption that the mass of people on earth look like khaki wearing white men, and they don’t.
To the commenter below: Polos and khakis are confined to white men? That’ll come as an awfully big surprise to, say, Henry Louis Gates (a black man), who was wearing exactly that when he was famously arrested, and who, as mentioned on many media outlets, *was 1000 times more sympathetic to mainstream America because he was dressed professionally.*
very well said John – in total agreement with you
“We are Wall Street. It’s our job to make money. Whether it’s a commodity, stock, bond, or some hypothetical piece of fake paper, it doesn’t matter. We would trade baseball cards if it were profitable. I didn’t hear America complaining when the market was roaring to 14,000 and everyone’s 401k doubled every 3 years. Just like gambling, its not a problem until you lose. I’ve never heard of anyone going to Gamblers Anonymous because they won too much in Vegas.
Well now the market crapped out, & even though it has come back somewhat, the government and the average Joes are still looking for a scapegoat. God knows there has to be one for everything. Well, here we are.
Go ahead and continue to take us down, but you’re only going to hurt yourselves. What’s going to happen when we can’t find jobs on the Street anymore? Guess what: We’re going to take yours. We get up at 5am & work till 10pm or later. We’re used to not getting up to pee when we have a position. We don’t take an hour or more for a lunch break. We don’t demand a union. We don’t retire at 50 with a pension. We eat what we kill, and when the only thing left to eat is on your dinner plates, we’ll eat that.
For years teachers and other unionized labor have had us fooled. We were too busy working to notice. Do you really think that we are incapable of teaching 3rd graders and doing landscaping? We’re going to take your cushy jobs with tenure and 4 months off a year and whine just like you that we are so-o-o-o underpaid for building the youth of America. Say goodbye to your overtime and double time and a half. I’ll be hitting grounders to the high school baseball team for $5k extra a summer, thank you very much.
So now that we’re going to be making $85k a year without upside, Joe Mainstreet is going to have his revenge, right? Wrong! Guess what: we’re going to stop buying the new 80k car, we aren’t going to leave the 35 percent tip at our business dinners anymore. No more free rides on our backs. We’re going to landscape our own back yards, wash our cars with a garden hose in our driveways. Our money was your money. You spent it. When our money dries up, so does yours.
The difference is, you lived off of it, we rejoiced in it. The Obama administration and the Democratic National Committee might get their way and knock us off the top of the pyramid, but it’s really going to hurt like hell for them when our fat a**es land directly on the middle class of America and knock them to the bottom.
We aren’t dinosaurs. We are smarter and more vicious than that, and we are going to survive. The question is, now that Obama & his administration are making Joe Mainstreet our food supply…will he? and will they?”
John: This makes no sense. I don’t care if you buy an 80K car or leave a 35% tip, that is irrelevant. Wealth itself is not bad… it’s how one uses it. And if you make 85K a year, that means the money is no longer being hoarded and there is more to go around. That waitress who pays more on her $100,000 in student loans than she does on rent may be able to find a decent job and move up!! Unemployment is great for capitalism… it creates a large group of people who, increasingly desperate, will work for low wages. If someone quits their $8/hr job, there is always someone unemployed who needs it. When your money “dries up” it goes back into circulation. The gap between the rich and poor is incredible and the rich need to understand how they put others at a disadvantage when they become attached to living “the high life.”
Good point. So down with minimum wage laws / price floors? sounds good to me. Thanks for the cogent argument against unions.
I’m not opposed to these people doing what they’re doing, or making what they’re making. I’ll just say that back in “the good old days,” like the 50s and 60s, these guys were buying the fancy cars, and leaving the 35% tips on business dinners, then, too.
And the highest bracket of income tax was 90%. Just think of the 99% as “social conservatives” who remember and like something about the “good old days.” Let’s bring back a little of “the good old days,” even if it is only the 90% bracket. I haven’t seen the “job creation” from tax breaks for the wealthy (which have been ongoing since Reagan).
For those of you saying that the dread locks are racist, you haven’t been at the meetings.
I will not be wearing khaki’s and polos because I don’t own them. I will be dressed in a clean shirt and jeans and a jacket.
I have real concerns about the moderate right, never mind right wing people to come. A democracy includes people who don’t think like you and that includes Republicans. We need to stop allowing the polarization of our views. Most people are Moderates! We need them. We are trying to open doors, not slam doors in faces.
How do we open doors by slamming them on the people who are already here, doing the hard work of organizing this assembly? If you want to dress in a collared shirt, by all means do so. If you want to appeal to others who dress that way, do so. That’s wonderful. But don’t do this at the exclusion of those of us who don’t.
Remember that most of America never wears a collared shirt to work their entire lives. That shit’s for funerals and weddings, not to mention that its gendered, and of a certain culture.
And honestly, I love weirdos. The US excludes a lot of people and homogenizes others. Hoorah for the people who reject it– or who ARE rejected and embrace it. As long as they don’t force someone into their mold, why force them into yours?
I agree with you. I don’t think I said anything that indicated that I think people should change who they are. I actually posted a follow up response. Not one single person should be ostracized or minimized because of who they are or who they aren’t. Regardless of whether that means a t-shirt and jeans or a shirt and tie. The 99% includes families from all over, from ALL walks of life.
I don’t think people should wear khaki’s and t-shirts, unless they want to. I understand the point of the suggestion and don’t think the person sending it deserves to be attacked and called a racist etc…. As I said image does matter. But what matters more than image is the willingness to accept that in order to move forward, you are going to have to be willing to talk to people you normally would rather avoid. Because they are part of the 99%, and maybe they have a lot to learn. But if you can’t be open to having a conversation to teach them differently, and possibly even learn from them, then we will be no closer to our goal of regaining our democracy. I have met some awesome people over the last few days and I think there is a great opportunity to create a movement, but not by stomping on people you don’t agree with.
You’re missing the point and deluding the message.
“Moderates” that judge on the basis of appearance are to me what the 1% is to the 99%. If you fall into the judgmental moderate category and are uncomfortable with my observation, well, your reaction is the same as the wall st bankers that turn their nose up at everyone else. Congratulations.
John, I am getting a very clear message from your bold, confident, powerful words! And that message is: you piss yourself at work. Wow! How unusual!
I am glad you’re working so hard that you can take the time during your work day to write lengthy posts to people who don’t care about your arrogant rationalizations. Keep doing what you’re doing, big fella. Maybe someday I’ll be as smart and powerful as you, and I can pee in my chair too!
Also, I don’t think anyone should be who they aren’t. I don’t have dreads, but it doesn’t look like they are something you just “undo” You are who you are, your voice is your voice. Regardless, image counts, whether you choose to accept that is not up to anyone else, but it is a reality that people judge you on how you present yourself. It isn’t something anyone here created, but it is something that we can change by engaging people and getting them to challenge their own thinking.
This tactic effectively amounts to throwing those who either don’t or won’t wear khakis and polo shirts under the bus. We are not applying for membership in the country club, people. We are trying to rally forces to take over the club and distribute its fallow lands to the hungry and homeless. Or at least we should be.
tangental…2.merely touching; slightly connected: tangential information. 3. divergent or digressive, as from a subject under consideration: tangential remarks.
It seems some responders are caught up in a literal understanding of wearing “khakis and polos” and the mention of locks… The point is “present yourself as if…” If this is important then dress as if it is important, and don’t bristle against the most bland outfit in the world. Khakis and polo-style shirts are not the dress code of the wealthiest Americans but the average middle class public and private school learners. It is an acceptable dress for every level of our society- welfare and wealthy, children and adults, museum staff members and mechanics… Of course, the thought of everyone wearing what I consider lazy, vanilla fashion is a bit stomach turning and doesn’t clearly represent that this is a protest from all levels of our society. Who wants to be part of a movement where everyone looks like the guys who fill up the bars in my home town- open door, look in, count the khakis, turn and walk away…? The basic gist is if you look like you respect yourself enough to take care of your appearance (which takes into consideration that you have a strong sense of self and you are presenting yourself in your truest and best form), then you have at least a toe in the door of being respected. Dressing to be heard is just good sense!!! Great suggestion!
Some things to consider:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-30/consumer-spending-in-u-s-slowed-in-august-as-incomes-unexpectedly-dropped.html
Keep in mind, that our government (my tax money) spent the following to address the financial mess were in:
TARP $700,000,000,000
Quantitative Easing 1 (QE1) $600,000,000,000
Quantitative Easing 2 (QE2) $600,000,000,000
There was also a first time homeowners incentive of I think $8,000 per house purchased (I don’t know haw many $Billions were wasted on this). Now Obama wants to spend an additional $447,000,000,000 on his jobs plan.
We have already spent over 1.3 Trillion dollars (tax money you and I, and my kids will have to give to Uncle Sam) to address this economic mess, and it has not worked.
A big part of why we are in this economic mess is because over the last 40 years, we have borrowed & spent too much. Once our country moved in 1971 from using gold to support the value of our dollar and moved to a “fiat” currency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money), we set a course of encouraging borrowing & debt – at the household level (you & me) and at the government level (federal, state, local).
This lead us to an unsustainable amount of consumer spending on too big houses, too fancy cars, too luxurious vacations, too much of everything we like. Much of this driven by consumer borrowing and spending – credit cards with high interest rates, home equity loans, decreasing savings. All of this is fun while it lasts, but is unsustainable.
At some point (like now) someone has to actually pay the bills.
So, spending our way out of this financial mess is not the answer, it’s a big part of what got us into trouble. More spending by individuals or government (both are money you and I have to put up) is trying to avoid doing what needs to be done – reduce the debt of our households, and reduce the debt of our government. neither of these is fun, and will likely be unpleasant, but they are necessary.
Our country needs to go back to a simpler, more financially sustainable lifestyle,
Our country needs to bring our armies back from abroad to save lives and money
Our country needs to educate our youth to compete in the rapidly global community we live in
Our country needs to tax everyone less and let us free citizens work together to live our lives.
70% of our country’s economy is based on consumer spending. Our economy is not sustainable on individuals buying more houses, i-whatevers, cars, lattes, vacations, TV’s, etc.
I could go on, but I think you get the message. It’s time that we change (and not the socialist kind Obonehead has in mind for us).
Dear Whoever started this movement – THANK YOU!!!
I stand in spirit with you! I wish that I could afford to join you!
The wealthy 1% control Washington and washington works fo them!
I also want to echo my support for the the individual who posted regarding the individual appearance of the protesters. Again, unortunately we are judged on appearance. Although I know many of you can not afford newer/better clothes. Wear the best you can and look the best you can so that you will be taken seriously as this is the most serious thing our nation has faced since the great depression. At the very minumum please see that anyone talking to the media is as neat as possible it will add validity to what you are discussing.
At any rate you have my support and I will try to send something to you as soon as I am able.
I hope someone will start an Occupy Columbus or Cleveland OH so I can participate!
We are the 99!
I completely disagree with this. This movement isn’t about looking presentable. I don’t want to live in a society where someone can’t get a job because they have piercings, tattoos, because of their sexual orientation, etc. Isn’t this movement also about equality? So I think we should promote the idea that everyone should be accepted for who they are. That is also one of my own demands.
Also, the insane right-wing isn’t going to be convinced regardless of this. Why? 1. They’re fucking insane. 2. They’re the ones who are usually against the things we want to reform. If you want to look presentable to a sexist, racist, and xenophobic party go for it. Good luck with that. Personally I think you’re wasting your time trying to make friends with fascists.
So I hope that political reform occurs, but I also hope that you’re not leading the cause. How is it any better to label an entire party as “sexist, racist, and xenophobic”? I generally opposed all sorts of across the board stereotyping, including labeling the opposition as hateful. If you do this, what will stop them from calling you a lazy Socialist? Why would you want to polarize instead of find a compromise that works for most Americans? How are casual clothing and negative stereotyping viewed by the masses? I think they’re viewed as immature and simple. Just my opinion.
This is seriously ableist. People who have different beliefs than you are not “insane”. Throwing around words like that is perpetuating inequality and contributing to people with disabilities not being taken seriously. And I’m sure that you’re intelligent enough to make a more compelling argument than “they’re insane”. However, I agree that there’s no point in making friends with fascists. I’ll dress how I want to dress at the protest and I don’t have to appeal to some ridiculous version of upper-middle class “business casual”.
First of all, khakis and a polo shirt is not “upper middle class.” You’ve obviously never worked a low-pay job in an office; if you had, that’s exactly what you’d be wearing. (Usually the higher-paying jobs require a tie, and certainly the upper-middle class ones.) Second, fascism refers to a very specific economic and political structure, not any totalitarian or authoritarian government. Stalin, for example, was totalitarian; however, he was obviously not fascist. Using that term in such a lazy way is no better than calling Obama a socialist.
Fascism is as much about institutionalized racism as it is an economic system and totalitarianism. If we’re white-washing our movement, it’s not going to work. We can bring character to it, but it’s not going to happen if we treat anyone who doesn’t adhere to what moderates want to see when they turn on the tv as if they’re irresponsible fringe. We can create credibility for everyone by TREATING each other with respect regardless of what we’re wearing or what we look like.
“We can create credibility for everyone by TREATING each other with respect regardless of what we’re wearing or what we look like.”
Here here. Amen.
I think dressing up isn’t about catering to the top 1%. It shows that you are serious and willing to work to create change like politicians, lobbyists, council members, etc.(in the traditional sense). If you feel the need to make two statements (Wall St is corrupt/bad for America and I should be able to wear what I want and nobody should judge me), you might confuse people. Effectively, you’re not marketing your cause very well by doing this.
If you have a valid point and want people to listen to it, dress up like you think its serious. You would wear a suit to a funeral because its a serious event and you wouldn’t want people to judge you as someone that is taking the event lightly. I believe that this is a serious concern for America, but others don’t. The small percentage of people who show up looking grungy allows opponents to discredit the entire cause. To show up dressed like you’re heading to a Phish concert shows your lack of sensitivity to the issues, and displays your lack of knowledge of negotiating, marketing, and sales. No one wants to argue with someone that can’t play ball because they are too busy getting tripped up about the injustices of every little minute point.
I still haven’t seen Ralph Nader or Dennis Kucinich show up to an event wearing casual clothing. Why did they feel the need to dress up for the “man”? Because they’re trying to create change, and that includes compromising the little things to achieve the bigger things. Losing sight of the end goals to “make your point” about not having to wear certain clothes is immature. If you can’t relate to the people you’re debating, you’re not going to be very successful.
The fact that you think a suit makes someone presentable and “serious” is the exact kind of attitude that I want to get rid of. Equality is a main demand and being who you want to be is part of that. A suit and tie doesn’t mean your educated. I don’t even need to argue that there plenty of “grungy” people out there who know PLENTY about politics, marketing, etc. If anything, that is the community that actually gives a shit.
Ralph Nader and Dennis Kucinich are individuals. This is hundreds, maybe thousands of people gathering. We don’t need a fucking uniform at a protest. If someone is only going to be convinced by the fact that we’re “presentable” then they most likely have insane views already. If someone is that superficial, they most likely don’t care about politics or aren’t in favor of egalitarian society’s anyway.
Demands will come overtime. But I think most people can agree that we want to end political corruption, corporate influence on politics, and build a more egalitarian society. From what we’ve talked about the past few days, I’m pretty sure that’s what most of us want.
“If someone is only going to be convinced by the fact that we’re “presentable” then they most likely have insane views already.”
People, if you see this guy at the rally and there’s a nearby television reporter, please distract them. If this is going to be a legitimate protest, we don’t need fringe people talking about how egalitarian the world should be or could be. We need actual demands and obtainable goals. Saying that “it would be cool to be all friends and equal and stuff man” after ripping a j will not promote change. It will polarize, thus wasting a lot of time that people have put into this cause. The power brokers of Washington aren’t likely to listen anyways. Don’t give them an excuse to not take you seriously. I agree with John- if people approached this cause as if they were making money (waking up at 5am and leaving at 10pm), something might get done. If you appear in public as if you just woke up, people are less likely to think that you have a legitimate point, and are more likely to write you off as a fringe liberal. And no, a fringe liberal is not better than a fringe conservative. In my opinion, neither one is willing to compromise or work with the other side. If you’re not interested in their opinions, what does that say about you?
Oh, and please don’t use the f bomb when presenting your case. It isn’t very pleasant and doesn’t help you make your point. It just shows that you had a tough time finding a synonym for f. I think both parties can agree on that.
What does it say that you want to instil the values we’re taught as wage slaves into a movement by and for the people to eliminate wage slavery? I’m done pleading with people to listen to me. I think the fact that we’re taking this step is an indication that most people are done begging. We’re demanding, now. On our own terms.
“If this is going to be a legitimate protest, we don’t need fringe people talking about how egalitarian the world should be or could be.”
Legitimate? By whose standard? This isn’t designed to be some Public Relations project. I see this as a serious effort to scare the bejeezuss out of the powers-that-be, a demonstration of our anger at being sold out by “leaders” of “both” corporate parties to the “Masters of the Universe” who dictate the terms of our daily existence. At times like these (when genuine progressives have been co-opted by phoney ‘liberals’ in corporate drag), an ANGRY mob is more apt to be effective than any number of well-behaved buttoned-down ‘candlelight vigils’.
All these mentions of “Casual Fridays” bring up another thing that burns me up. By ‘offering’ these kinds of ‘perks’, your corporate masters are just rubbing your noses in the fact that they have power over you that they can choose to exercise or not. ‘Casual Fridays’ tells me that the usual ‘corporate drag’ is simply what Marcuse called “surplus repression”. The fact that you can do your job perfectly well even when dressed ‘casually’, and your masters tacitly admit this to be the case, they are impressing upon you that their “dress codes” don’t really mean much except to express their power over you by maintaining an ‘iron fist’ in that ‘velvet glove’ that allows you to dress casually….but only when THEY say so!!
“On our ‘own terms’. I’m done pleading with people to listen to me.”
All I can say is good luck. I hope that you (and your stealth group you referred to with the word “our”) are able to take money from millionaires in an aggressive, non-diplomatic way. That sounds like a good strategy and realistic, especially in a flannel shirt (with a hole in it to prove that you’re a working man). Millionaires are probably loving the fact that people can’t even agree that business casual is appropriate for talking about changes to business. It effectively lets them know that very little will happen. Which is too bad, because it seems like a good cause.
Have you ever seen a picture of Marx, Emma Goldman, Lenin, Trotsky, Dorothy Day, Martin Luther King Jr., Cesar Chavez, or Noam Chomsky? There’s nothing anti-revolutionary about taking some pride in your appearance. It shows that you have a sense of dignity and self-worth, and if the revolution isn’t about that, then what on Earth is it about?
But the issue I have is who exactly is defining what “taking pride in your appearance” is? That’s a definition being imposed on us from above.
I think I’m defining it like that and I’m definitely not coming from high above. In my opinion, the way that one presents themselves is important, and that includes the language that they use. Using curse words to make a serious point, while using hyperbole to equate the plight of African Americans during slavery and Jews during the Holocaust to the “wage slavery and fascism” that we face in America in 2011. (Honestly, what slaves have access to write about their feelings and opinions on a workday on an expensive computer?) If someone doesn’t pay attention to the way they present themselves (clothing and the words they use), they don’t strike me as someone that I’m willing to work with. In my opinion, you can work with people or against them. I tend to like to work with people.
So you’d say that Americans saying things like “we should have separate lines for Muslims in airports” and the like isn’t fascism? That people in government are saying these sorts of things and advocating fascism isn’t at all alarming? I’m being hyperbolic in asserting that “khakis and polos” excludes an enormous portion of the 99% we’re talking about, including people in traditional religious attire and those who can’t afford to dress up like golfers to go to a protest? Wage slavery is the practice of, as it implies, our being slaves to wages. Do I have a choice whether or not I want to work for shit wages? The banks, the corporations, the 1% all know that’s the same choice as whether I want to be homeless or not or eat dinner tonight or go hungry. It’s not my fault you don’t know what these terms mean or recognize the contexts but there’s a reason we’re occupying Boston and that we’re pissed off and these are some of them.
It’s good that you are done “pleading”.
You need to explain your position with facts, not “pleading”.
My wife pleads with our kids to eat their vegetables and it doesn’t work
“Do I have a choice whether or not I want to work for shit wages?”
Yes, you have a choice whether you want to work for (bad) wages. You also have a choice whether to work or not work. Wanting to work and actually working in this instance are two different things. I think you’re assuming a) people like to work and b) many other people are making a lot more than you. If you traveled abroad, you might redefine your perception of what a “(bad)” wage is.
I think you’re misusing the word slave. I guess that is my point- by misusing words, you allow others to attack your reasoning and logic. If you’re going to mis-use words, please pick a less important issue to protest.
Also, wearing suits isn’t appealing to the 99%. It’s appealing to the 1%. In my opinion, people don’t wear suits because they want to, but because of the bullshit standards that society has set.
No way dude! Barney Stinson says otherwise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqMWkCuzYcs
I wear suits because I want to, and no one in my entire family, myself included, has ever even made the national average (about $49000 per year). I don’t know where you get your ideas about the working and middle classes, but it doesn’t seem to be from actual working- and middle-class people.
This is not about how you dress – it is about communications.
Understand your audience and figure out how to communicate with them.
Otherwise you are wasting time.
Yes, and understanding my audience isn’t wearing a suit. Most people don’t wear suits unless they have to and no one is going to go out and buy clothes just to impress some fucking middle/upper class yuppies.
I’m not in favor of telling people what to do. That means dress codes, the pathetic smoking rule we talked about yesterday, etc. We need to show people that we all come from different backgrounds and we’re still here working together for a common goal. Not conforming to suits and ties, because that’s not what/who we are.
The “fucking yuppies” are part of the 99%. You must realize this if this protest is going to be any different.
Good god people, just wear something clean. Dress seriously, however you interpret that. This isn’t an attempt to force you to “conform”.
Just. look. presentable.
We are all grown ups and can read between the lines.
Hear, hear.
I love how this thread has deteriorated so quickly into “Ogg wears no collared shirt! Ogg wears bones in his ears.”
I’m kind of impressed, to be honest, that it has taken this long to break out the blatant classism. The largest portion of the 99%, which everyone seems to be ignoring, are the people who can’t afford to look “presentable” in the way this person seems to mean: as though you are middle class and thus important enough to be listened to. A protest full of people who can afford business casual isn’t a protest I’d be joining because they’re saying, right at the outset, that they’re not looking for people like me and they don’t care about people like me.
If those are the only people you want to appeal to, fine. But stop pretending you’re the 99%, when you’re leaving out such a huge portion of us because we’re too poor to matter.
Alternately, of course, you could start reaching out to more of the people on public assistance, the people who have been perpetually un- and under-employed since before the recession hit, the immigrants working for minimum wage, the homeless. The people who have been shit on so many times by the people who are being shown as the faces of this protest that they’re not going to assume that this involves them, too. If you want to be the 99%, you have to include *all* of the 99%.
This.
Seconding a ‘this’ with a side of “fuck yeah”.
I will say I noticed the classism right off the bat when people were going “get the police on our side”. Right, because the black community (noted for their distrust of police) are going to come support them while the cops continue to beat people in NYC.
The fact white people are speaking up at all is what is getting so much attention.
I’m waiting for the “We are the 50-99%, not like the lower 50%!” Oh wait, that’s what this post was about!
I was under the impression that the whole #occupy movement was about the 99% and LEADERLESS. Now some twat who owns tjmaxx or walmart stock wants everyone to go out and “spiff up” in the rags of his own choosing… F that, buddy.
If you’re part of the 99%, just come as you usually are. Dress to be seen in a crowd of THOUSANDS. If someone puts you down for how you’re dressed when you show up, give them a “down dressing.”
“I’m 35 right now. I understand where the hippy thing comes from. I get it as well as a guy who’s 35 can. My Counterparts do not.” I feel sorry for you, and those “counterparts” that don’t “get it.” I’m thinking (old hippy, ya know, like your dad, maybe) war protests and others in the 60s and 70s. Hmmm, come to think of it, the only ones SHOT were wearing their “nice” college clothes in Ohio. I’m 42. I know where the hippy thing, as well as being socially aware, humanist, and being one part of a “bigger thing” come from… you, sir, DO NOT. It’s an “individual consensus.”
Mark,
No group of people have ever been successful at anything without a LEADER.
If you don’t have a LEADER, you are wasting time – nothing more.
Peace, John
P.S. Our President is not a leader. He is an extremely charming, articulate and persuasive fraud.
This is so simple.
In order to be taken seriously, in order to represent your cause in a professional manner, you must dress that way. If you think that because of this protest, the “uniform” of successful people is going to become ratty t-shirts and holy jeans, you’re sorely mistaken.
You think that the 1% are the only people out there wearing suits and polo shirts? Seriously? Even McDonald’s workers wear polo shirts.
on September 30th, 2011 at 10:19 pm #
[…] bicker at you, not because I think you are incompetent. In fact, Occupy Boston already shows off a lot of this kind of savvy that will make this movement flower. I offer these because I want this thing to succeed. Because […]
In Rome, your best advantage is to speak Italian.
If you want the monkeys on Wall Street –who, BTW–are NOT for the most part American and do not give a rotten rat’s behind about your personal woe– to listen to you, SPEAK THEIR LANGUAGE. The only direct communication you’ll have with them is what they’ll see. (Remember the image of the 700 pilots marching enmasse)?
Ask yourself what your true goal is. Is it really to tear the Wall on Wall Street down so you might build a bridge, or is it to make your personal statement, no matter the cost? Build the bridge in this way or the Wall on Wall Street gets taller…and thicker.
Tell yourself the truth. Tie dye T-Shirts cost $29. Jeans about the same. A polo shirt can be had-right now -for $5 at most department stores. Chinos or dress slacks in a thrift store for around $7. It’s not an economic issue, right? It’s about resistance. Rebellion.
Act like you’re a Wall Streeter and hit them where it hurts. Take your money out of their banks. Maintain only a minimal balance checking account with no fees and free checking. Use a no fee credit card to pay for EVERYTHING and pay the balance off every month. They’ve just floated you an interest free loan. (My free checks have a tie dye design) 😉
Welcome to Wall Street!
http://studentactivism.net/2011/10/01/an-open-letter-to-wil-wheaton-on-occupywallstreet/
Excerpt:
That Reddit post uses the word “you” twenty-three times in fourteen short paragraphs. “We”? None. None times. The Reddit guy claims he’s on the side of OWS, claims he wants middle America to see OWS as part of its “us,” but he’s not willing to be a part of that transformation himself.
He’s not willing to show up and put his polo-clad shoulder to the wheel.
And that act, that act of solidarity, is exactly what’s needed right now.
You want to help? Don’t tell a bunch of hippies to go buy polos and khakis. Tell your hundreds of thousands of polo-and-khaki garbed Twitter followers to put on their work clothes and head over to Liberty Plaza. That’s what’s needed, and that’s what’s possible.
“SOCIALISM NEVER TOOK ROOT IN AMERICA BECAUSE THE POOR SEE THEMSELVES NOT AS AN EXPLOITED PROLETARIAT BUT AS TEMPORARILY EMBARRASSED MILLIONAIRES” – John Steinbeck
I see two types of people at these events: 1) People that tried to make it into the 1% but failed and are just bitter, and 2) People that have been oppressed all their life knowing they’d never make it into the 1% but hoped change might be around the corner anyway.
Posts like this rally the people from group #1, while forever alienating group #2. Way to go.
on October 3rd, 2011 at 5:26 pm #
[…] Hide the Hippies. I’m pleased to say it wasn’t just me. In fact, Occupy Boston felt the same way and had a long thread on their blog about. The images and perception are changing, slowly but surely, and that is a boon for the Occupy […]
http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-unable-to-wear-nice-clothes-without-everyone-a,7027/